"The backing band was Toto." ([info]gender_euphoric) wrote in [info]transgender,
2008-10-17 13:43:00

trans kids

http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200811/transgender-children
It features Ken Zucker pretty prominently.
Shall we discuss?

I guess what I don't understand is...*of course* if you attempt to force your kids (or child patients) not to be trans anymore, many will give in to your demands. If my own parents had been rich enough/believed in therapy enough to take me to someone like Ken Zucker, who believes you can bully a child into not being trans--I probably would have eventually given in, too, at least until I was on my own.

I also think...I mean, there definitely are many trans(gender) people who don't wish to make a transsexual transition. That doesn't mean they aren't trans(gender), and it doesn't mean they fully identify in the gender commonly associated with the assigned birth sex.

Finally, I mean...what if someone's identity goes back and forth, or they decide for whatever reason not to take hormones as teenagers? Would it be so terrible for someone who goes on to live as a man to have had years of life lived as a girl? Would that be like OMG destructive to society?
Tags: news, youth

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  • 25 comments

[info]tinamou

October 17 2008, 19:14:59 UTC 3 years ago

Would it be so terrible for someone who goes on to live as a man to have had years of life lived as a girl?

I think a lot of the support for reparative therapy comes from people (parents, therapists, teachers, etc) being just unwilling to go there. Every argument I've heard defending reparative therapy notes that lots-to-most gender dysphoric children grow up to be cisgendered adults; I have no idea what the numbers are or how the studies are done, but I can believe that. Also, plenty of trans adults don't report being gender dysphoric as children; I'm willing to believe the hormonal and physical changes at puberty put people's gender identity through a spin cycle. But that doesn't answer the question about why reparative therapy is necessary. If plenty of trans kids will eventually grow out of it, why not let them be happy in the meantime, and encourage them to express their gender however feels most comfortable at the time?

[info]singingtoearth

October 18 2008, 01:30:59 UTC 3 years ago

I agree that young people should be given some freedom to sort it out themselves.

I really wish there were more studies on the emotional health and long term effects on this type of therapy and less focus on whether it "works."

[info]krank_kether

October 17 2008, 19:37:43 UTC 3 years ago

A friend of mine just sent me that on facebook. Zucker is SUCH an idiot! I mean listen to this crap: “If a 5-year-old black kid came into the clinic and said he wanted to be white, would we endorse that?”

Gender is the same as race!? Come on, sell it to someone else. That plus the pronouns in this article being wrong all over the place just makes me want to scream.

[info]jessie_c

October 17 2008, 19:47:53 UTC 3 years ago

Given that my parents and peers subjected me to 25 years of de-facto reparative therapy I wouldn't recommend it for a second. Reparative therapy has been proven not to work on all other groups of people. Why should it work on transpeople? Why should it be expected to work? Why is Zucker still being given even a minute's credibility?

Why are parents so freaked out by the thought that their children just might be gender-variant?

[info]coyoteseven

October 17 2008, 19:59:56 UTC 3 years ago

Fear is a good motivator. As long as people have something to to fear, charletons like Zucker can continue to make a living off that fear, at the expense of those peoples' children.

And the abuse cycle is allowed to continue.

[info]outofsynch

October 17 2008, 20:29:54 UTC 3 years ago

they're scared because they don't know what to do with it. It doesn't fit into their neat little boxes of reality and people are hard-wired to be scared of the unknown. (I've heard it suggested this fear dates back to a survival instinct.)
That's why they ask 'what do i do?' when presented with something like this. They asked the same thing back in the day about their children possibly being gay. Once you ask, then it's a crap shoot as to whether you'll get an "expert" who is more for the repression treatement, or more for the expression treatment.

Some people don't ask though. they see something that is out of their norm, panic, and try to squish it. unknown things litterally bring out a fight/flight instinct in a lot of people.
think about any time you've come across something moving in the dark. That first reaction b/f you get your head back. That start, when your heart jumps. That's what I'm talking about. Some people can calm down from it, others just go with it. It's a simmilar reaction to social occurances. blah, I could ramble for a while, but I won't.

[info]coyoteseven

October 17 2008, 21:01:34 UTC 3 years ago

This is what FDR really meant in his famous quote, "The only thing we have to fear, is fear itself". Most people don't bother to understand what that really means. But oftentimes, especially in modern society, its our own irrational fears (they are irrational nowadays, anyway) that cause the most damage. Damage to ourselves and to others. People who don't try to understand that will be forever a slave to those lizard brain impulses; that is the true sin of sloth.

[info]terry_terrible

October 17 2008, 23:21:08 UTC 3 years ago

Why is Zucker still being given even a minute's credibility?

Because their a lot of people out there who want their unexamined presumptions backed up by a guy with a fancy sounding degree and who has published a lot.

[info]profgreen

October 17 2008, 20:00:29 UTC 3 years ago

This article made me cry a little. :(

[info]kawaii_emily

October 17 2008, 22:17:37 UTC 3 years ago

yeah... i just finished reading it, and happened to see this entry on my friends feed. i feel exactly the same way.

[info]danaelaurm

October 18 2008, 00:31:02 UTC 3 years ago

This...
And also feel sick...
And like I had been punched :(

[info]sqrrel

October 22 2008, 01:04:19 UTC 3 years ago

Yeah. Me too.

[info]lisaquestions

October 17 2008, 20:05:33 UTC 3 years ago

I'm really happy that a lot of parents are allowing their children to live in their chosen gender, whether or not they turn out trans (although I dislike the implication that the treatment to halt puberty is forcing kids to go through with transition - wtf?)

I'm really unhappy with Zucker's views given airing, but I think the article's not entirely favorable to him.

I'm kinda worried about parents of trans children getting into activism and trying to, well, behave the way that parents of autistic children behave about autism activism.

[info]lisaquestions

October 17 2008, 20:06:06 UTC 3 years ago

Also, the author's insistence on misgendering every single trans person mentioned in the article, and titling it "A Boy's Life" when she's writing about a girl.

[info]sin_nombre

October 19 2008, 07:05:39 UTC 3 years ago

I don't know if you read Pam's House Blend, but one of the bloggers there posted about the general fucked-upness of the story: http://www.pamshouseblend.com/showDiary.do?diaryId=7630

Apparently the writer took a lot out of context (trying to bend the kid's situation to fit the story) and the mother of the girl who was featured is understandably upset about how their story was presented:And now, a few months after the family talked to this reporter, the child profiled in the story is living full time as a girl and is doing very well at both home and at school. So, it was especially frustrating to Kim that the article gives a wrong impression how the child is actually doing; the child in question's full time public expression of her affirmed, female gender actually resolved the conflict the child was feeling about being a girl. The impression Rosin left was that the child was presenting as gender confused, and that's just not the case -- The child has known who she is, and is comfortable about being a girl; it was the rest of her world not allowing her to affirm her gender which was previously this youth's challenge.

[info]sin_nombre

October 19 2008, 07:06:16 UTC 3 years ago

Oops, I forgot to put a line break before the quote. The italicized part is quoted from the blog post.

[info]lisaquestions

October 19 2008, 07:06:58 UTC 3 years ago

I don't read it as often as I should - thank you for this.

[info]switchercat

October 17 2008, 20:48:55 UTC 3 years ago

getting into activism and trying to, well, behave the way that parents of autistic children behave about autism activism.

That's sort of a broad way to put it -- what exactly do you mean?

[info]lisaquestions

October 17 2008, 20:55:57 UTC 3 years ago

I mean that I've heard of several instances in which parents of autistic children are dismissive toward autistic people involved in activism, dismissing them as "too high-functioning to really be autistic" or "too autistic to really be able to talk about such things."

I mean, obviously, trans people aren't autistic and the same arguments wouldn't apply, but parents - especially parents who go for reparative therapy have cis privilege on their side, and if they're willing to make noise for said therapy to take precedence over humane treatment, it could be damaging.

[info]switchercat

October 17 2008, 21:01:08 UTC 3 years ago

That kind of parents. Right. Thanks.

(My mom's co-founded a small local advocacy organization for parents of autistic children, so ... I've met all kinds of caretakers who like all kinds of therapies. Some of them are totally inapplicable to trans kids -- gluten-free diets, say -- so I got puzzled about the connection there.)

[info]lisaquestions

October 17 2008, 21:03:26 UTC 3 years ago

Sorry about lack of clarity. :)

[info]eleventh_guard

October 17 2008, 21:48:34 UTC 3 years ago

If you want an almost-humorous anecdote, a gluten-free diet helped me begin transition. I have to avoid the stuff completely - my doctor was unsure whether it's celiac disease or just a very severe intolerance, but either way it makes me sick. No direct connection to my gender identity issues. I suffered from severe depression and anxiety from age 7 to age 27, when I was diagnosed. I couldn't make much progress with psychotherapy because the trouble was biochemical and antidepressants didn't help. After finding out the physical problem and correcting it, my mental state improved enough that I could actually deal with my issues. And now on T as well, and the hormone problem mostly knocked out, I feel even better.

Rarely do the two have any connection, but in my case there was a correlation and it was a positive one. :)

[info]kawaii_emily

October 17 2008, 22:22:48 UTC 3 years ago

this was tough to read and stay calm throughout. i feel like i've been punched in the gut a little bit.

i understand the doubts and fears, the stares, the risks, the pain...

but if i'd been given the choice of having "the shot" as a pre-pubescent person? i wonder what i could have done.

[info]zootyzoot

October 20 2008, 00:29:22 UTC 3 years ago

But about a month after that, everything began to change. Chris had joined a softball team and made some female friends; her mother figured she had cottoned to the idea that girls could be tough and competitive. Then one day, Chris went to her mother and said, “Mom, I need to talk to you. We need to go shopping.” She bought clothes that were tighter and had her ears pierced. She let her hair grow out. Eventually she gave her boys’ clothes away.

Been there, done that. As an FtM, at one point I did the same thing. I became ultra-feminine to try to fit in. It made me happy I was becoming accepted, but after the initial acceptance passed I was just as miserable. After sophmore year, I wore more comfortable clothing that could pass as either male or female. That relieved me some. When I accepted who I truly was, I began to wear mens clothing. Now I'm happier with myself than I ever was.


I wonder how much longer after she became ultra-feminine did the interview take place? The author gives no note of it. I'm thinking later down the road, she will simply go back to re-discovering her feelings.

[info]hrolleif

October 20 2008, 21:57:58 UTC 3 years ago

I feel bad for the kids who were supposedly "cured" by Tucker or Zucker or whatever.
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